美国副总统彭斯1月3日接受了美国之音特约记者格莱塔·范·萨斯特伦的专访，谈到了伊朗和朝鲜问题。下面是这次采访的中文翻译并附英文原文。
格莱塔·范·萨斯特伦问： “伊朗正在发生许多事情，我知道这是一个很艰难的局势，非常多变。美国准备如何回应？我知道有推特和口头表达的支持，那么实际行动？”
彭斯副总统：“我们要记住的重要一点是，首先伊朗是世界上支持恐怖分子的主要国家，他们不仅压制自己的人民，拒绝给予他们人权，而且他们还在这一地区输出恐怖，继续作为一个巨大而危险的不稳定因素存在。所以看到伊朗人民站出来要求变革应该感动每一个热爱自由的美国人以及全世界珍惜自由的人民，我必须说今天的情况和2009年伊朗“绿色革命”时美国总统所持的沉默态度有区别。”
问：“他等了几天以后但后来还是表态了。”
彭斯：“但是川普总统对于伊朗各地抗议者的明确肯定和支持是非常显著的，我认为这与美国的倡导自由领导者地位非常符合。”
问：“说到支持现在有口头上的支持，而奥巴马总统09年也在晚了几天以后。”
彭斯：“不仅是晚了几天，我知道当时的情况。我是国会议员，您记得我当时是众议院外交委员会成员，我记得2009年，看到那场在伊朗存在舞弊的选举后由青年人主导的这场街头运动，体现了伊朗人民要求民主和自由未来的巨大勇气。我们看看2009年的白宫，当时的美国领导层，都无所作为。奥巴马政府的态度是令人震惊的沉默。所以作为国会议员，我和民主党议员伯曼，他当时是外交委员会主席，我们一道起草了决议案。决议案在众院几乎全体通过，麦凯恩和利伯曼参议员也在参院提交了这项决议案，也得到了全体通过，然后奥巴马总统和他的班子才表了态。上届政府对支持民主的沉默态度和失败与川普总统坚决与勇敢的伊朗人民站在一起形成了对比。我知道这给在各城市街头抗议的民众带来了希望，我们会继续不仅在口头上支持他们，而且在他们推动国家变革的同时，我向你保证美国和更广泛的世界会与推动更好，更繁荣，更自由的未来的伊朗人民站在一起。”
问：“在大概1956年的时候，同样的事情发生在匈牙利。人们起义，我们给了口头支持。老布什总统在任时我们对库尔德人做了同样的事。我们进行了‘绿色运动’，就像您说的，当时国会全票支持，与奥巴马总统回应的速度有所不同，但当我们口头支持他们，不一定达到了我们想要的效果。有没有可能美国口头支持他们的时候，其实美国是想要用实际行动来支持他们上街游行？”
彭斯：“美国和全世界其他国家能为伊朗人民做的很多，只要他们继续坚持争取他们自己的自由、变革，抵制几十年来压制他们国家并继续用恐怖主义输出来扰乱外部世界的激进思想。您看，当勇敢善良的伊朗人民为民主抗争时，上届政府不仅保持沉默，还进一步包容了川普总统拒绝重新审核、我们也继续领导世界抵制的灾难性的伊朗核协议。您知道，伊朗核协议的目标是要鼓励一个更加温和的伊朗的出现，但我们没看到这样的结果。但看到伊朗人再次上街游行，美国现任总统愿意传承美国的传统，向伊朗人民保证，对他们说，我们与你们站在一起，我们支持你们，我们准备帮助你们取得更加自由繁荣的未来。我觉得这代表了一个真正的契机，如果我现在有一个希望，那就像是希望像前苏联的异议人士听到了罗纳德·里根《邪恶帝国》的演讲那样，知道他们并不孤单而受到鼓舞，伊朗上街游行的人知道，在川普总统的领导下，他们并不孤单，美国人民与他们站在一起，只要他们继续展现他们坚定的勇气，伸出手拥抱一个自由民主的未来，美国和世界就会跟他们在一起。”
问：“川普总统现在是通过推特进行支持，而伊朗当局……政府关闭了推特、Telegram、脸书和 Instagram，所以社媒在伊朗不能传播到每个人。我觉得这个采访会传播到伊朗，因为美国之音会到达那里，虽然总统可能不能传达到他们。第二是，我怀疑伊朗很多人可能因为总统的移民政策和对伊朗人进入美国的旅行禁令而苦恼，我不知道伊朗人的接受程度如何，除非总统能向他们传达更多信息。”
彭斯：“伊朗政权、伊朗的阿亚图拉的镇压没什么奇怪的。他们依然是一个否认他们人民的基本人权、关闭通讯方式和社媒的国家，这并不稀奇。”
问：“除了通过推特，总统是不是有其他途径，或他想用其他途径。比如，参议员林赛·格雷厄姆建议总统通过全国讲话来对美国谈这个问题。”
彭斯：“我觉得川普总统今早再次在社媒上直接跟伊朗人民对话了。”
问： “但他们没有社媒，这是个问题。”
彭斯: “不管是总统还是我本人，不管是国务卿还是妮基·黑利大使，我们都会继续坚持。跟九年前不同的是，我们会继续向在伊朗街头抗议的人传递这个明确的信息——美国人民与热爱自由的伊朗人民和世界人民站在一起，我觉得这是充满希望的时刻。我的目标是……我的祈愿是伊朗人民，这些年轻的，受到良好教育的人，能明白美国和美国人民生来是他们的盟友。我们希望看到他们获得自由民主的未来。我们希望看到他们远离那个不断危及、胁迫世界，威胁发展核武器的政权。”
问：“如果总统不认证协议，会发生什么情形？伊朗人民原以为，协议所解冻的那些资金将流入到他们手中，并将重振伊朗的经济。这并没有发生，而这是引起抗议的部分原因。如果不重新认证协议，会发生什么呢？您觉得伊朗人民会怎样？”
彭斯：“总统明确表示我们不会重新认证。”
问：“那么，伊朗人民会怎样？”
彭斯： “但是在您说的问题上，还有其它决定必须做出。在我们是否继续免予执行制裁的问题上，总统正在认真考虑，这个决定将在本月中旬之前做出。”
问：“您觉得制裁有用吗？因为制裁有时是有效的。我并不反对制裁，我希望能对缅甸实施制裁。所以，我的意思是说，我并不是反对制裁。但是制裁、加大制裁会不会伤害那些正在街头抗议的人民，或者说，制裁有用吗？”
彭斯：“我们相信制裁是有效的。不仅在伊朗有效，我们相信制裁在朝鲜也有效。总统和本届政府绝对致力于继续动用美国的全部经济实力以及这些制裁措施，向伊朗施加压力。目前，我们还在与国会共同努力，以达成新的协议，为接下来的制裁列出新的一系列条件。我们希望能有一个长期的协议，一项长期的立法，这项立法规定说，如果伊朗在任何时候试图获取可用的核武器以及运载核武器的弹道导弹，所有的制裁措施都将立即重新实施。但是这些都是我们接下来要做的决定。不过，我认为，看到伊朗街头发生的事情，您只能相信目前所实施的制裁以及我们可以施加的更多的制裁正在对伊朗产生效果。它对伊朗的经济产生了效果，它壮大了伊朗人民的胆量，让他们有了挺身而出的勇气。”
问：“在回答我最后一个问题时您提到了朝鲜。川普总统在推特上发文说他有比金正恩更大的按钮。他在这场来回反复的推特大战中以这种方式向金正恩发推，是否是在玩火？”
彭斯: “川普总统已经在世界舞台上展现了这种明确的领导力，特别是在朝鲜问题上取得了显著进展。金正恩的新年信息一方面谈到他想要与邻国韩国沟通，同时他也讲到拥有射程可以到达美国的导弹并且说在他的桌上就摆着一个按钮。在金正恩发表上述讲话后，川普总统传递的信息是，他明确表示，美国不会被欺凌，美国不会被威胁，明确地说，美利坚合众国已经计划安排向朝鲜施加前所未有的经济和外交压力。在朝鲜与国际社会僵持，忽视国际社会数十年，并持续发展核武器和弹道导弹数十年后，我们现在开始真正看到该地区的一些国家的行动。中国……”
问：“您不担心么？”
彭斯: “中国做的比以往都要多。中国需要做的更多，但中国正在比以往做的更多以在经济和外交上孤立朝鲜。我真的相信明确了所有选项都在桌面上，相信总统已经做得，明确了美利坚合众国拥有远高于朝鲜能够想象到的保卫我们人民的能力，并且也明确提出如果朝鲜能够放弃其发展核武器和弹道导弹的野心，如果他们能废除这些项目，还是有机会能够和平解决朝鲜问题的。”
问: “副总统先生，很高兴见到您，谢谢您。”
彭斯: “见到您很高兴，格莱塔，谢谢您。”
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以下是VOA专访彭斯副总统的英语全文：
Greta Van Susteren: “Mr. Vice President, good to see you sir.”
Vice President Mike Pence: “Good to see you, Greta. Thank you.”
Q: Much is going on in Iran, and I realize it is a very tough situation, situation very fragile over there. What is the United States going to do, if anything? I know that there’s been a tweet and verbal statements in support, but what about doing?
Pence: “Well it’s important to remember that first and foremost that Iran is the leading state sponsor of terrorism in the world. Not only do they oppress their own people, deny human rights to their own, but they also export terrorists across the region, and continue to be an enormously dangerous destabilizing force. And so to see the people of Iran rising up to demand change in their country should hearten every freedom loving American and people who cherish freedom around the world, and I have to tell you, that the contrast today between the deafening silence from an American president in 2009 during the Green revolution in Iran and the clear—“
Q: “He waited, he waited, he waited a few days but then he spoke up.”
PENCE: “Well, but the clear affirmation and support that President Trump has provided to protestors rising up in cities across Iran is dramatic and I think it’s very consistent with America’s role in the world as a leading champion of freedom.
Q: “In terms of support though, there’s verbal support and there was admittedly President Obama’s few days late back in ’09--”
PENCE: “It wasn’t just a few days late, because I was there. I was a member of the Congress, you recall I served on the Foreign Affairs Committee in the House of Representatives, and I remember back in 2009, seeing this largely youth driven movement following a fraudulent election in Iran, people taking to the streets, demonstrating incredible courage that the people of Iran did to claim a democratic and free future. And we looked to the White House in those days in 2009, we looked for American leadership, and there was none. There was deafening silence from the Obama administration. So as a member of Congress, I authored a resolution with a Democratic Congressman by the name of Howard Berman who was at the time Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee. We introduced the resolution, it passed almost unanimously in the House of Representatives, then Senator McCain and Senator Lieberman introduced it in the Senate where it passed unanimously, and then and only then did we hear from President Obama and the Obama administration. The contrast between the silence and the failure to support freedom in the last administration and President Trump’s unapologetic willingness to stand with the courageous people of Iran. I know it is giving hope to the people on the streets of those cities across that country and we’re going to continue to support them in not just verbally, but as they bring about change in their country, I can assure you the United States and the wider world stands with the people of Iran who want a better and more prosperous and freer future.”
Q: “In 1956ish, the same thing happened in Hungary where the people rose up, and there was verbal support. We’ve had it with the Kurds with President Bush ‘41, we had the Green Movement which the Congress, as you say, had supported a unanim—different on how fast President Obama responded, but is when you support them verbally, it has not had necessarily the intended consequences. This is a chance where the United States has supported them verbally, is there something more that the United States intends to actually do to support them as they take to the streets?”
PENCE: “There is an extraordinary amount that the United States and countries around the world can do for the people of Iran if they will continue to stand up for their own freedom and to stand up for change and to reject the radical ideology that overtook their country decades ago and continues to beset the wider world through the export of terrorism from Iran. Look, the last administration not only was silent when the good and courageous people of Iran were rising up for democracy but they also pushed forward and embraced the disastrous Iran Nuclear Deal that President Trump refused to recertify and we’re continuing to provide leadership on. You know the hope of the Iran Nuclear Deal is that it would encourage a more moderate Iran but we’ve seen nothing of the kind. But to see people taking to the streets again in Iran and to now have an American president who’s willing in that great American tradition to affirm and to say to the people, we’re with you, we support you, we’re prepared to help you achieve that freer, more prosperous future. I think it represents a genuine opportunity and if I had one hope today it’s that just as the dissidence in the old Soviet Union heard of Ronald Reagan’s evil empire speech and were encouraged to know they were not alone. My hope is that the people who are taking in the streets in Iran know that under President Donald Trump they are not alone, that the American people stand with them and if they will just continue to show the courage of their convictions and reach out and embrace a free and democratic future that America and the world will be with them.”
Q: “The way the president has done it so far is by twitter and the Iranian authorities…the government has shut down Twitter, Telegram, Facebook and Instagram so social media into Iran is not reaching everyone. I realize that this interview will reach into Iran because Voice of America does reach there and so the president may not be reaching them, the second thing is I suspect that many people in Iran are a little bit distressed with the President’s immigration and terms of banning people from Iran from coming here, the United States so I don’t know how receptive the people are in Iran unless he reaches out more to them.”
PENCE: “Well, the repression by the regime, by the Ayatollah’s in Iran is not surprising. They continue to be a nation that denies basic human rights to their people and to be shutting down communication means and social media is no real surprise.”
Q: “If it’s done by Twitter, is there another vehicle that the president has other than I mean you’re speaking here today, is there another vehicle that the president intends to use. Senator Lindsey Graham suggested he addressed the nation for instance on this issue our nation on it.”
PENCE: “I think the President again spoke out on social media this morning, directly to the people of Iran.”
Q: “But they don’t have social media, that’s the problem.”
PENCE: “I can assure you that whether it’s the president, whether it is myself, whether it’s our Secretary of State or Ambassador Nikki Haley we’re going to continue to send, different from nine years ago we’re going to continue to send from the very outset of this effort on the streets of Iran an unambiguous message that the American people stand with freedom loving people in Iran and around the world and I think this is a very hopeful moment and my goal…really my prayer is that the people of Iran a youthful population, a well-educated population, understand that The United States of America, the people of this country are their natural ally. We want to see them achieve a free and democratic future. We want to see them step away from a regime that continues to menace the world to threaten the world and threaten to develop nuclear weapons.”
Q: “What can the people expect in this if the president doesn’t recertify the deal? Now, the people of Iran thought with the deal that all the money that was going to be unfrozen would go towards—would go with them and would revitalize their economy. That hasn’t happened, what has provoked, in part, these protests. What happens without the deal being recertified? What do you see happening to the people in Iran?”
PENCE: “Well, the president made it clear that we are not recertifying.”
Q: “So, what happens to the people in Iran?”
PENCE: “But there are other decisions that have to be made, to your point, Greta. Whether or not we’ll continue to waive sanctions and the president is actively considering that decision that needs to be made by the middle of this month.”
Q: “Do you think that will help? The sanctions? Because sometimes it works. I’m not opposed to sanctions. I want sanctions in Myanmar, you know? So, I mean I’m not opposed to sanctions. But will sanctions, upping the sanctions in Iran will that harm the people who are protesting on the streets or is it helpful?”
PENCE: “We believe that the sanctions working. They are not just working in Iran, we believe they are working in North Korea and this president and this administration are absolutely committed to continue to bring the full economic weight of the United States and these economic sanctions to bear on Iran. Now, we’re also working with the Congress to arrive at a new agreement, a new set of conditions for sanctions going forward. The reality is the Iran Nuclear Deal was so ill-founded because in part it not only did it not deny that Iran could develop a nuclear weapon. By it only being a ten year agreement, it virtually guaranteed that they would develop a nuclear weapon after that ten-year period in time. What we want is to have a long term agreement in place, a long term legislation in place that it says that if at any time Iran attempts to obtain a usable nuclear weapon and the ballistic missiles to be able to deliver it, that all sanctions would be re-imposed immediately. But all of those decisions going forward, but I think, as you see what’s happening on the streets of Iran, you have to believe that the sanctions are in place today and additional pressure we can bring to bear is having an effect on the nations, its having an effect on the economy, its emboldening the people of Iran to be able to have the courage to step forward.”
Q: “You brought up North Korea in my last question, is the president – the president has tweeted that he has a bigger button than Kim Jong Un. Is he playing with fire with Kim Jong Un in tweeting him this way – in twitter war back and forth?”
PENCE: “President Trump has provided the kind of clear leadership on the world’s stage that’s made measurable progress particularly with regard to North Korea. And the message the president sends, in the wake of Kim Jong Un’s new year’s message where while on the one hand he talked about wanting to reach out to his neighbors to the south, at the same moment he spoke of having missiles that could reach the United States, having a button on his desk. President Trump made it clear, America will not be bullied, America will not be threatened, and that the United States of America has, and by being clear, managed to marshal an unprecedented amount of economic and diplomatic pressure on North Korea. And after decades of North Korea stalling and ignoring the world community, and continuing to develop nuclear and ballistic missiles, we’re now literally beginning to see some movement among nations in the region, China is – ”
Q: “You’re not worried?”
PENCE: “China is doing more than ever before, China needs to do more, but they’re doing more than ever before to isolate North Korea economically and diplomatically and I truly do believe that making it clear that all options are on the table, that the president has done, making it clear that the United States of America has the capacity to defend our people far beyond anything North Korea could imagine, but also making it clear that if North Korea will abandon their nuclear and ballistic and missile ambitions, if they dismantle those programs, there’s an opportunity for a peaceable solution.”
Q: “Mr. Vice President, nice to see you. Thank you sir.”
PENCE: “Great to see you Greta. Thank you.”
