Russian opposition politician and journalist Vladimir Kara-Murza was released from a Russian prison on August 1 as part of a wide-ranging exchange of prisoners between Russia and several Western countries. He had been jailed in April 2022 on charges of treason for criticizing Russia's war in Ukraine. He was almost fatally poisoned twice, in 2015 and 2017.
Since his release, Kara-Murza has been actively involved in the Russian opposition’s diplomatic efforts, meeting with the U.S. and French presidents and the German chancellor. During a recent visit to Washington, he sat down for interviews with Voice of America journalists. Speaking to VOA’s Ukrainian Service, he discussed the agenda that the Russian opposition is promoting in the West.
The following interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.
VOA: After your release, you met with [U.S.] President [Joe] Biden, [French] President [Emmanuel] Macron and [German] Chancellor [Olaf] Scholz. What was your main message to them about policy toward Russia?
Vladimir Kara-Murza, Russian opposition politician: There are two main messages. The first message is that [Russian President] Vladimir Putin must lose the war in Ukraine, because if he does win, that means that in a year or a year and a half, we will be talking about another war or another Russian invasion, because this is what this man does.
The second message is that the democratic nations of the free world must have a strategy. We know from the last couple of centuries of Russian history that failed wars of aggression always lead to political changes at home. Once Putin is defeated in Ukraine, there must be a prepared strategy for reintegrating a new, changed, post-Putin democratic Russia back into Europe, back into the civilized world, and back into what we call the international rules-based order.
VOA: If Putin loses power, how can democratization possibly happen? Someone from his inner circle would most likely grab power.
Kara-Murza: I hope he doesn't die in office and that's how it ends. I'm a Christian, and I know that everybody gets a trial up there, and so will he. But I really want that man to get a trial in this life, too.
On the question of change, this is a personalistic dictatorship. It is not an ideological dictatorship like in Soviet times, with the collective Politburo, when you could replace the person at the top without replacing the regime. This system is going to collapse very quickly, as we saw in 1953 after [Josef] Stalin's death.
VOA: But [Nikita] Khrushchev, who replaced Stalin, was from his inner circle; he wasn't an outsider.
Kara-Murza: Even if the next leader comes from the same circle, they always base their rule on a complete denial of everything that happened before. Khrushchev was one of Stalin's closest entourage. He was the one who released millions of people from the gulag and engaged in a very incomplete, very imperfect but nevertheless de-Stalinization process that we had in the late 1950s, early 1960s — the so-called “Thaw.”
VOA: What kind of preparations should be made? How could democratic forces seize power?
Kara-Murza: The domestic aspect concerns reflection and accountability, which I call a truth-and-reconciliation process. That is necessary for any society that has undergone the trauma of totalitarian rule. All the people who are responsible for the crimes against Russian citizens, like the assassination of Boris Nemtsov, the assassination of Alexei Navalny and the persecution of hundreds and hundreds of political prisoners, have to be brought to justice. All the archives and the documents of all the crimes committed must be made public.
VOA: What about confronting the Russian imperialist mentality? Should Russia also confront all the crimes it has committed toward other people throughout its history?
Kara-Murza: It is part of the totalitarian past, because for years and years, for decades, the regime in the Kremlin has been committing crimes against our people in Russia and against other countries, other people and other nations. Look at the aggression and the wars this regime has conducted against the Chechens, against the Georgians, against Ukraine — let's not forget, starting in 2014. Then, in Syria, of course, let's not forget [Sergei] Shoigu, [Putin’s] defense minister, boasted about new armaments they had tested — tested! — on people, on civilians in residential areas.
VOA: I want to address your main argument about integrating Russia into the West after democratization and liberalization. The main argument against this would be that the West already tried that in the 1990s. Russia was part of the G8. NATO and the EU engaged with Russia. It received assistance. However, as Russia became richer, it became more aggressive. The more it became integrated with the West, the more efficient its malicious activities against the West became.
Kara-Murza: Here is where I fundamentally disagree, because the whole problem is that the West did not do that in the 1990s. Yes, there were some symbolic steps, like the G8, which is just a summit meeting. But, unlike other countries of the former Warsaw Pact, Russia in the 1990s was never offered a prospect of what I would call first-tier European or Atlantic integration with tangible benefits like free trade, visa-free travel and common security guarantees.
VOA: But it requires time. Ukraine still hasn't been offered NATO membership ...
Kara-Murza: But the problem is that these windows of opportunity are, by definition, short and brief. They last a few months at best, and the West lost that window of opportunity in Russia in the early 1990s. We cannot allow that to happen again.
In 1943, as WWII was ongoing, the U.S. government developed the Morgenthau Plan for postwar Germany. It was about dismembering, de-industrializing, humiliating and basically destroying Germany as a functioning state. Given the horrors committed at the time of the war, it was emotionally very understandable. However, leaders of Western-allied nations realized that they could not base long-term strategic policy on emotion. So, the Morgenthau Plan was abandoned in favor of the Marshall Plan, which was the exact opposite: to rebuild and reconstruct Germany after the war, to make it a successful market economy and a functioning liberal democracy.
VOA: Should this happen before or after Russia pays reparations for the destruction of Ukraine?
Kara-Murza: It should be simultaneous. The only way we can ensure long-term peace, stability, security and democracy on the European continent is with a democratic Russia. It's not going to happen any other way.
